De la SALIVE et des ANCHES !

J'ai compilé cette suite de mails de la The klarinet list.
Des précisions sur notre salive, avec des conseils pour les dates de vos concerts !!
Avec l'aide de Diane R. Karius, Ph.D. Department of Physiology University of Health Sciences.
Vous verrez que tout cela ne manque pas d'humour malgré le sérieux de la discussion.

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Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds De : Schaffner Thomas
A : klarinet@sneezy.org

Saliva:
pH: 5.8-7.8 (acidic to slightly basic): depending on production rate; there is a high inter-individual variation! if 0.1 ml/min: acidic if 3 ml/min: basic (mine must be rather on the basic side when I moisten a delicious new reed! Just the thought of it makes me salivate!)

Minerals: Sodium, Potassium, Calcium Magnesium: increase also with rate of production (hence the increase in pH)
Protein: ca. 1 g/ liter Glucose: ca. 1 g/liter (fermentation by bacteria will produce acid)
The major protein is amylase, ca 0.3 g/liter (an enzyme braking down starch)
A minor protein is lysozyme, a bactericidal (antibiotic) substance
Thomas S. >

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En réponse à :
on 10/12/00 12:06 AM,
Gary Truesdail wrote:
> >Saliva contains minerals and some acids which can dissolve some of the
> >material in the cane. De : Schaffner Thomas
Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Patricia Smith
An: Gesendet: Freitag, 13. Oktober 2000 13:49 Betreff: Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds > Thomas,

> A side issue, but one I find interesting regarding human saliva:
> Do females have more acidic saliva than males as a rule ?
> Or is this just (pardon me) an old wives tale ? > > Patty Smith >

A : klarinet@sneezy.org

Hi Patty
My inexhaustible table indicates that women might have a more acidic saliva!
This I infer from the higher volume of saliva men produce. pH for men is lower than for adults of mixed gender (I did not find data on women tested as a group, I presume that tests werde done on conscripts or prisoners).
The best time for clarinet performance would as it appears to be July between 4 and 7 AM when salivation is lowest.
On should be aware of excessive salivation from October to March between 7 to 11 PM (the concert season should therefore be changed immediately!)
While chewing gum or drinking lemon juice salivation increases sharply and saliva becomes more neutral. To test show a lemon to a brass player in concert.

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Re: [kl] Re: Warping ReedsDe : "Diane Karius" 

A : 

Sure - chapter and verse is my favorite thing:  

When formed, saliva is neutral (or nearly so, during resting periods) or alkaline 
(pH ~ 8 during a meal) due to the addition of bicarbonate.  
(Ganong, Review of Medical Physiology, p. 467; 1999).   
The enzyme produced by the salivary glands include lingual lipase (works on lipids) 
and salivary amylase (works on starches).  

Salivary amylase breaks the alpha 1,4 linkages connecting the glucose molecules 
that make up the starches (ibid, p. 448).  Plant material, particularly the cell wall, 
is made up of cellulose, which is glucose linked together in a 1,4 BETA linkage.  
Salivary amylase CANNOT work on that and thus will not attack that part of the reed 
(thus providing us with the existence of dietary fiber)

As a note:  between meals, if you just stick a pH paper on your tongue you may record 
an acidic pH:  the action of bacteria in the mouth tends to acidify the mouth.   
The increased secretion that occurs when you "wet" the reed should neutralize 
this pretty quickly.  

Diane R. Karius, Ph.D. 

Department of Physiology

University of Health Sciences

1750 Independence Ave. 

Kansas City, MO 64106

(816)-283-2219

dkarius@uhs.edu

www.uhsweb.edu/physio

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[kl] Re: [Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds]

De : 

A : klarinet@sneezy.org

So I could change the title of my recital on October 26th (doubly bad being at

8 P.M.) to "Wet and Wild" ?

Kelly Abraham

Woodwinds/Computer Geek

New York City

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Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds

De : GrabnerWG@aol.com

A : 

Diane Karius says:<>

So Diane...we're NOT digesting our reeds when we wet them with saliva.

All my )playing) life, I have heard that "acids and enzymes" in saliva act 

negatively on our reeds.

We'll probably STILL be hearing this on the list in 20 years.

My question is, who makes up this stuff? Why do we treat it as Gospel?

I have recently cut myself loose from all this STUFF. What I do, reed-wise, 

mouthpiece-wise, even repair-wise, is stuff that WORKS for me...not something 

some expert told me 25 years ago!!!!

Nice to see you contributing on the list. We need your knowledge Diane!

Walter

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Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds

De : "Diane Karius" 

A : 

>>> GrabnerWG@aol.com 10/13/00 12:09PM >>>wrote:  

>So Diane...we're NOT digesting our reeds when we wet them with saliva.

That is correct :-) 

>All my )playing) life, I have heard that "acids and enzymes" in saliva act 

>negatively on our reeds.

>We'll probably STILL be hearing this on the list in 20 years.

>My question is, who makes up this stuff? Why do we treat it as Gospel?

Haven't a clue, wish I knew :-)  The phenomona occurs in the science world too 
(that's the part that really scares me!).  
There's a major medical physiology text that persists in printing as truth 
aspects of respiratory control (my expertise) that were debunked 
20 years ago or more (and some things that I have no idea of the source - 
and I know that literature).  When said with sufficient force, 
most people will buy just about anything (thus explaining the 
"I want to sound just like famous clarinetist X, what mouthpiece, etc... 
do they use?" threads we go through :-)  Personally, I wouldn't mind if 
someone could sell me a set-up that made me sound like "X".  
It'd be a lot easier than practicing a few hours a day 
(and would get past the talent limitation thing...)

>Nice to see you contributing on the list. We need your knowledge Diane!

Thanks for the compliment.  

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Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds

De : GrabnerWG@aol.com

A : klarinet@sneezy.org

In a message dated 10/13/00 1:33:56 PM Central Daylight Time, Dkarius@uhs.edu 

writes:

Walter: << Nice to see you contributing on the list. We need your knowledge 

Diane! >>

Diane: <<  Thanks for the compliment.  >>

Not only that, we think you're CUTE!  * wink * wink *

OK, I'm being a smartass today......

Also too serious!

Walter.......who is in his most Puckish mood today.....was reading Midsummer 

Night's Dream last night

dit dika dika dit dit dit, dit dika dika dit dit dit, dit dika dika 

dit..........

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[kl] Re: Warping ReedsDe : George Kidder 

A : klarinet@sneezy.org

As a comment from another physiologist:  I suspect that it is the bacteria

(and fungi) which live on reeds which have been wet with saliva that are

doing the damage.  As Diane states, there seems to be nothing in saliva per

se which would attack anything in a reed (although there are other

components than cellulose in the reed).  In my experience, soaking the reed

in 5% hydrogen peroxide (drugstore variety) for a few minutes (while I swab

out the instrument) before putting the reed back in storage seems not only

to eliminate the dreaded black fungus, but to prolong the life of the reed.

(No controlled experiment, it just works for me.)  Peroxide might

inactivate salivary enzymes,

 but it certainly inactivates bacteria and

fungi, and at least gives me the feeling of cleanliness,

 rightly or not.

George Kidder

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Re: [kl] Re: Warping Reeds

De : "Patricia Smith" 

A : 

Walter, if I am ever in your area, may I come by to see you and can we play

Midsummer Night's Dream together ?  It is my favorite piece for tonguing ?

that is, if my more acidic saliva does not destroy my reed faster (LOL) ?

Diane, do I understand what you are saying to mean that, although what

Thomas is saying may be true, that  male and female saliva is somewhat

different,  (he does qualify his statement by saying that the populations

tested were prisoners and conscripts), the differences in pH really are not

enough for a woman to, say wear out her reeds more quickly than a man would?

Awaiting response...

Patty Smith